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Focus on productivity

 
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jwatte
DeleD PRO user


Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:05 am    Post subject: Focus on productivity Reply with quote

What I like about DeleD is that it's pretty solid (few crashes), and it has a good workflow. I think that any new features should focus on filling out these main traits. (As opposed to, say, character modeling and animation).

I honestly think that a release that just fixes the bugs that exist would be a wonderful thing -- no new features necessarily needed. The two bugs that get in the way are:
- The CSG missing polys bug: having to go and check every surface after a CSG operation drastically cramps my style.
- X exporter generating smoothed normals for everything (although I have a work-around for this).

One step up from that would be to add better access to functionality that is already there (or mostly there), but may be hard to get at. Here goes things like:
- Exporting the light mapping UV coordinate set as part of the mesh (as well as the lightmap filename, say as an effect parameter).
- Custom viewports. Especially the ability to have a swivelable ortho camera, and the ability to rotate the camera around a selected item, instead of FPS-style. This would make it easier to select and edit specifically the things that you're interested in, within a complex map.
- Non-rendering geometry. For example, trigger zones. This can almost be done today by just mapping a special texture to certain geometry, but a formalization of this workflow would be super (say, "select by material" or a list by material in the scene browser).

That, already, would make for a fine "major release".

Now, if we're talking large feature upgrades, I have a small list of what would really help for levels (in addition to what's above):

- A command to fix T-joints (typically, by tesselating the triangle of the longer edge). (This could conceivably be a plug-in, but it's better someone else spends time on that :-)
- A hierarchy of objects, where objects can be attached to parent objects, and swivel around an object-specific pivot. Export this pivot as part of the mesh hierarchy. This would be awesome for things like doors.
- Non-geometry nodes: nodes that show up in the mesh as frames, but that don't have geometry. They may have annotations; say, a list of user-inputted strings. This is great for placing things like particle effects, trigger zones, etc. If non-geometry nodes could be tied to parametric shapes, like blocks and spheres, and export the parametric parameters, that'd be swell, too. This can sort-of be faked with special textures, but again, explicit support would be helpful.
- Support for specifying FX files, and editing FX parameters, in the material editor.
- Selection sets (could probably be done right now with groups).

After that, I'm sure there's zillions of cool things that could be done, but from my point of view, these items would bring the highest leverage to the DeleD experience. I was tempted to add requests like "radiosity in the lightmapper" or "per light-set light maps," but I can do without those (or plug the geometry into a third party light mapper). DeleD is much more important for editing, than it is for lightmapping (and many engines don't even use lightmaps anymore).

OK, end soapbox.
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Sindwiller
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Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 331
Location: Zürich. Switzerland

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi jwatte!

Quote:
As opposed to, say, character modeling and animation


Well, it is planned to implement bone animation but i would prefer a modeler that is spezialized at character modeling and animation. Like Milkshape3D or Fragmotion.

Quote:
Support for specifying FX files, and editing FX parameters, in the material editor.


.FX are Shaders, right? DeleD is not supposed to be a level editor. It is a modeler. Else, you can write a simple plugin for DeleD (like Il'Buzzos Preview Plugin) that can load .FX.

Quote:
radiosity in the lightmapper


That is too expensive to do. You can use, like you said, third party GI-Lightmappers for that. The best i know is Gile[s].

Quote:
and many engines don't even use lightmaps anymore


This is true. But Lightmapping is still a very good static lightning method. Global shading models like the one used in Doom3/Quake4 are still very expensive.

Wfr, Sindwiller
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Mr.Fletcher
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Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 1772
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sindwiller wrote:
Well, it is planned to implement bone animation

It's not.
It's beeing considered but nothing seems to be decided yet.
I hope it will get to a BoneD, though Smile
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Paul-Jan
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Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 3066
Location: Lage Zwaluwe

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jon,

First of all, thanks a lot for this large list of constructive requests (prioritized and all), it is very very much appreciated!

Most of them are pretty clear, but I am going to ask you to do a bit of elaborating on the next one:

- Exporting the light mapping UV coordinate set as part of the mesh (as well as the lightmap filename, say as an effect parameter).

You are talking about the .X exporter here, right? Are you saying there is a standard way of storing a second set of UV coordinates inside a .X file? Or at least a way that makes loading it correctly into Direct3D trivial? We have looked into this for quite a while, but couldn't find any information on it, nor could we find any third party applications supporting loading such a .X file. If you could give us the technical specs on how to achieve this (by e-mail or through the forums), it would be marvellous!
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jwatte
DeleD PRO user


Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Are you saying there is a standard way of storing a second set of UV coordinates inside a .X file?


The way I know to do it is through the use of the DeclData template. You can spit out a vertex declaration for whatever vertex component you want, and it will be indexed in parallel with the vertex indices. Note: it doesn't have its own indexing set (like the normals do), so you have to split the vertices you output based on what their UV sets are.

I believe that loading a mesh like this into the DirectX Viewer, and using an Effect file that uses two texture channels, would render this correctly.

Is there a way to get the lightmap U/V data based on the API right now? If so, is there some sample or documentation you can point me at? Dropping a second U/V set into NuXporter would be pretty straightforward.

Regarding plug-in APIs, I believe that any language should have C-callable interface, or could easily get one (i e, lua, python et all all have good ways of wrapping arrays of C structures). If you try to export Sanssouci with NuXporter, it takes longer in the "Reading" phase (which snarfs the data out of DeleD) than in all the other phases together (which do multiple passes over the data). I basically take the same approach as Il Buzzo's exporters, except I'm rather more aggressive about preventing object copying or vector re-sizing, so it's already faster than that example.
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jwatte
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Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ow, two more feature requests that I'd put in the middle group:

- Two-sided materials. Really useful for transparent surfaces (and, especially, "special" material objects).

- A "split plane" similar to the one in the Source editor. You can kind-of fake it right now with a large enough cube that you rotate, and then click "split", but a better UI for that operation would help.
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jwatte
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Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe that loading a mesh like this into the DirectX Viewer, and using an Effect file that uses two texture channels, would render this correctly.


I just checked: the mesh will load correctly into DirectX Viewer, but the second texture coordinate set will not be available (I believed wrong).

When you load the mesh yourself (using an enumobject), the coordinate set will be available.
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hpesoj
DeleD PRO user


Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 184

PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Focus on productivity Reply with quote

jwatte wrote:
The CSG missing polys bug: having to go and check every surface after a CSG operation drastically cramps my style.


Definitely, although it appears to be only subtract that does this.

jwatte wrote:
- X exporter generating smoothed normals for everything (although I have a work-around for this).


I agree, as discussed in the other thread.

jwatte wrote:
the ability to rotate the camera around a selected item, instead of FPS-style. This would make it easier to select and edit specifically the things that you're interested in, within a complex map.


Indeed. The ability to 'lock' the camera to a point in space would increase DeleD's potential as a modeller and not just a level editor.

jwatte wrote:
- Non-geometry nodes: nodes that show up in the mesh as frames, but that don't have geometry. They may have annotations; say, a list of user-inputted strings. This is great for placing things like particle effects, trigger zones, etc. If non-geometry nodes could be tied to parametric shapes, like blocks and spheres, and export the parametric parameters, that'd be swell, too. This can sort-of be faked with special textures, but again, explicit support would be helpful.


Another good idea, although you could just not load geometry with special tags in your engine, but this way would make things simpler, which is what people look for in a modeller.

jwatte wrote:
- Two-sided materials. Really useful for transparent surfaces (and, especially, "special" material objects).


Double-sided rectangles are already in, do you mean double sided versions of all geometry? At the moment this is probably feasable by extruding the region, moving the surface back again, then welding the vertices.

Sindwiller wrote:
.FX are Shaders, right? DeleD is not supposed to be a level editor. It is a modeler. Else, you can write a simple plugin for DeleD (like Il'Buzzos Preview Plugin) that can load .FX.


Shaders aren't limited to level editing (although I'd say DeleD is fairly level-editing oriented at the moment, even if it isn't pure level editing). Shaders are used on all types of models and it is handy to have the shaders already applied in the exported file. Shaders are really just another level of material.
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jwatte
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Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it appears to be only subtract that does this.


Not true; I can reproduce it with union (see bug report in another post).

Two-sided materials: I want a material which, when applied to an object, makes that object render two-sided. I e, it's not a property of how the object is created; it's a property of the material that's applied to the object.
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