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Reactor
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Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 8
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 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:07 am Post subject: Camera controls... |
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DeleD's camera controls are quite poor. The WASD/Arrow keys movement is chunky, and some of the basic camera controls you'd expect to see in an editor of this type (like rotating around an object) just aren't there.
I like DeleD as a CSG modeller, but... has anyone thought about improving them? To me that's one of the main things that lets the program down. A lot. |
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AWM Mars
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 1195
Location: Wilts England
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:54 am Post subject: |
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I never use the keyboard to move the camera, only the mouse and I find it very easy. You can adjust the zoom speed etc in Options.
Having used quite a few programmes to model in, I personally found DeleD to be the easiest and has the most freedom of movement.
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elementrix
DeleD PRO user
Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 1300
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:09 am Post subject: |
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use:
ctrl-right mouse button for panning
shift-right mouse button for zooming
and only the right mouse button to have a free view and change direction
works great when you get used to it.
imo rotating around an object isn't really necessary in a world modeller.
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Reactor
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Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Having used quite a few programmes to model in, I personally found DeleD to be the easiest and has the most freedom of movement. |
I've used pretty much every program on the market. I'd go so far as to say DeleD's are some of the worst I've seen. If you think it has some of the best, I have a ton of programs to show you that'll surely blow you away. After all, if DeleD's are so good, why are the world's most popular 3D packages sporting control schemes that are nothing like it? The answer is- DeleD's are dated. Perhaps you're used to them, but pretty much every program on the planet is better at this point in time, and that makes switching to DeleD a bit of a painful experience.
| Quote: |
| imo rotating around an object isn't really necessary in a world modeller. |
Possibly not, but sometimes it's helpful. The problem with the panning method is it's slow. You pan to the side, and then you need to adjust your view. You can't pan and look at the same time. The same is true if you 'zoom' forward. You still need to take the second step of adjusting your view afterwards.
Have a look at 3D World Studio's controls. Although I can't say much good about its lack of development, it's camera controls are what DeleD's could only dream of being. The WASD movement is smooth as silk. |
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harper
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Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 283
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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To Reactor:
Maybe i saw 2 or 3 programs less than you, but Deled is the ONLY program i found it worth to take a look on - and i'm happy with it for 2 years now. What dou you think about a 1000-Dollar-program without such simple thing like "reset camera" ? Most of others don't even offer such basic comfort. |
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Jeroen
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 5332
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Note: ctrl+alt mousebutton rotates models around the camera actually (Hi Paul!). 
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AWM Mars
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 1195
Location: Wilts England
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Like quite a few users here, I've been using 3D Modelling programmes for around 10 years. Quite a lot seem to tether the view to a fixed point, like you are staring directly at the centre all the time.. so I like the freedom to what I want, DeleD gives me that.
I've used programmes that cost a fortune, and ones that are free, paying any price is no assurance the user interface or user experience, is going to be quality.
As most user experiences are unique, I guess you are perhaps the odd one out here, in not liking DeleD. Personally, I'm glad I found it, its not perfect, but it comes a lot closer than a lot. My work-flow has increased, which is a good indicator.
I would offer some useful advice.... do not switch to DeleD.. clearly you have found other alternatives that suit your work-flow, there is no such thing as a single solution... GL
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Starnick
DeleD PRO user
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Posts: 611
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if you're coming from a Maya or 3DS perspective, it is poor.
But to be honest, I was always more of a fan of the FPS style controls that DeleD has - probably because I'm not a modeler.
Although doesn't mean I wouldnt be in favor of adding more camera maneuvers. |
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Reactor
Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| What dou you think about a 1000-Dollar-program without such simple thing like "reset camera" ? Most of others don't even offer such basic comfort. |
What on earth are you talking about? Every $1k+ program I've used has had a reset camera. XSI can save/recall camera positions and undo just the camera moves. DeleD is simply miles behind.
| Quote: |
| I've used programmes that cost a fortune, and ones that are free, paying any price is no assurance the user interface or user experience, is going to be quality. |
Yes, but I'm not sure why you feel the need to mention that.
| Quote: |
| As most user experiences are unique, I guess you are perhaps the odd one out here, in not liking DeleD. Personally, I'm glad I found it, its not perfect, but it comes a lot closer than a lot. My work-flow has increased, which is a good indicator. |
Well, I am the odd one out here, because you guys have chosen to hang around this forum. That's kind of to be expected, don't you think? People who haven't liked DeleD have obviously gone elsewhere. As for workflow- that's good to hear. I was hoping it could increase mine too, but there are a few things in the way of that, and that again, is why I'm here.
| Quote: |
| I would offer some useful advice.... do not switch to DeleD.. clearly you have found other alternatives that suit your work-flow, there is no such thing as a single solution... GL |
You know, I was under the impression this was a suggestions forum. Why are you taking my suggestions as some kind of personal attack against the program? There's a lot to like about it. If there wasn't, I wouldn't be here. Sheesh.
| Quote: |
| Well, if you're coming from a Maya or 3DS perspective, it is poor. |
Thankyou.
Here's the gist of it. Some of you guys are here because you, because of personal preference, like the way it controls. Most people don't. On the outside of this forum lots and lots of people I've spoken to agree that it's a nice little modeller that controls like a pig. So, I'm here at the suggestions forum to say, "Hey guys, it's nice you like it. But, if you'd like others to get stuck into using it, how about looking into improving the camera controls a bit?"
I have a few other decent suggestions, but it's quickly becoming obvious to me this forum is mostly a hangout for people stuck in their own little world. |
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Jeroen
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 5332
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Camera controls... |
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Let's leave personal feelings aside and concentrate on the issue at hand which are camera controls:
| Reactor wrote: |
DeleD's camera controls are quite poor. The WASD/Arrow keys movement is chunky, and some of the basic camera controls you'd expect to see in an editor of this type (like rotating around an object) just aren't there.
I like DeleD as a CSG modeller, but... has anyone thought about improving them? To me that's one of the main things that lets the program down. A lot. |
Summarized, DeleD now has:
ctrl-right mouse button for panning
shift-right mouse button for zooming
right mouse button to have a free view and change direction
ctrl+alt mousebutton rotates the world around the camera
wasd or arrows to move around
@Reactor: what would you like to see added?
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Reactor
Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:17 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Jeroen. What I'm after is pretty much what you've quoted.
- Less chunky movement when using the WASD keys (compare to 3D World Studio, as mentioned)
- No movement delay when using the WASD keys
- When holding right mouse and using WASD, Q for upwards movement and E for downwards movement.
- Consistency with movement directions. For example, zooming with the mouse wheel is correct (up=zoom in) but zooming using shift is reversed (forwards/up=zoom out). And, pan is correct, when in most 3D programs it's reversed. It'd be nice to see options for each of these, but by default they should all work the same way.
- It'd be nice to have the ability to rotate around a selection (when making a prefab object, for example) but if the WASD controls are improved, I could live without it.
| Quote: |
| ctrl+alt mousebutton rotates the world around the camera |
I don't have this ability in 2.41CE. Am I missing something? |
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AWM Mars
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 1195
Location: Wilts England
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Judging by the reactions your post got, I would say, you hardly popped your head in and said Hi.
"DeleD's camera controls are quite poor. The WASD/Arrow keys movement is chunky, and some of the basic camera controls you'd expect to see in an editor of this type (like rotating around an object) just aren't there.
I like DeleD as a CSG modeller, but... has anyone thought about improving them? To me that's one of the main things that lets the program down. A lot."
You began by intimating that we are all stuck in time using a out dated programme. Whats more, you did not explore the programme correctly, a lot of what you want, is already there.
As I said, experience is a unique and personal thing. I do not like many of the other programmes out there.. full stop. Just because your opinion is different, doesn't mean mine, or anyone elses, are invalid.
What you will find here is, with the right approach, a great group of people that support DeleD, all contributing with free time and skills. Many of the features requested have been implimented.
Lets start again.... Hi.
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Jeroen
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 5332
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:02 am Post subject: |
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It's true that moving with WASD controls isn't smooth. I'm a mouse user myself so I'd like to know in what way smooth WASD would improve your workflow?
| Reactor wrote: |
| zooming with the mouse wheel is correct (up=zoom in) but zooming using shift is reversed (forwards/up=zoom out). |
That's strange. In 2.44CE (latest version), shift zooming works just like mouse wheel zooming and I thought it had been for a long time. Perhaps updating to 2.44 would help?
Btw, zooming can be reversed in Options, or by using Shift+F7.
| Reactor wrote: |
| And, pan is correct, when in most 3D programs it's reversed. |
Do you mean ctrl+right mouse up should move down and vice versa? Also, what kind of options would you like to become available for this? Please be as specific as you can be.
| Reactor wrote: |
| It'd be nice to have the ability to rotate around a selection (when making a prefab object, for example) but if the WASD controls are improved, I could live without it. |
If you update to 2.44CE (just download the latest version from delgine.com), you'll have ctrl-alt rightmouse to rotate the world around the camera. Is this what you need?
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Reactor
Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: |
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I could reply to what you've said AWM Mars, but I think it'd be a waste of time. Needless to say, I'm not fussed about what you do and don't like. I'll say 'hi', but let's just leave it at that.
| Quote: |
| It's true that moving with WASD controls isn't smooth. I'm a mouse user myself so I'd like to know in what way smooth WASD would improve your workflow? |
It'd more precise, for one. If you're going to spend hours working, it's also nice to have a program that visually doesn't irk you. The advantage of reducing the delay in the movement is that if you move around a lot, a delay just gets frustrating. It's nice to have a program that responds quickly and that you don't need to wait for, especially when the rest of your camera controls are quite smooth and fast acting.
| Quote: |
| That's strange. In 2.44CE (latest version), shift zooming works just like mouse wheel zooming and I thought it had been for a long time. Perhaps updating to 2.44 would help? |
It did, thanks. I went to this page before-
http://www.delgine.com/index.php?filename=product_deled
And figured the 2.44 update wasn't out.
| Quote: |
| Btw, zooming can be reversed in Options, or by using Shift+F7. |
Thanks. As I was writing my suggestions I had a sneaking suspicion it was in the options 
| Quote: |
| Do you mean ctrl+right mouse up should move down and vice versa? |
That's correct, and left should move right.
| Quote: |
| Also, what kind of options would you like to become available for this? Please be as specific as you can be. |
The same option as zoom- a toggle to invert it.
| Quote: |
| If you update to 2.44CE (just download the latest version from delgine.com), you'll have ctrl-alt rightmouse to rotate the world around the camera. Is this what you need? |
That's quite good, but it'd be good (perhaps something else suited to an option) to rotate freely around each of the axis (at the same time). So, up and down as well as left and right, but locked to a 90 degree rotation so the most you can do is look directly on top, or directly underneath. XSI enters that kind of a camera mode by holding a single key. It's very simple, but allows you to get a good look at any object. The advantage of the vertical/horizontal lock is that it stops the camera from getting flipped. |
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AWM Mars
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 1195
Location: Wilts England
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