DeleD Community Edition

[Spaddlewit]

I'm sorry, Jeroen! I didn't realize what I've started!

Kinda in the same boat as ADR - I'm working with an engine I've built from scratch, and I really have plenty of work on the actual game that keeps me busy to dedicate most of my energies to rewriting DeleD. If it was already there I could assist, but to essentially start over, it feels like I already did this with my own game engine since I couldn't find any that already fit my needs.

[chronozphere]

[Nocturn]

I see two different things here that made DeleD halt. The first thing is that it's written in Delphi/Pascal which does not seem widely used in graphics development anymore (take a look at pascalgamedev.net which seems quiet) and i take the most of the people here don't know Delphi/Pascal nor do they have the expensive Borland IDE. The second thing is that the code is in need for refactoring which makes it even more difficult since the group of people who fullfill the above conditions and are willing to spend time on it is very small.

Possible outcomes are that DeleD dies right here or gets very few updates over a longer timespan - which would be very sad.

Or somebody takes up the torch and starts to rewrite in C++ or C# which have the benefits that they are wider spread, have free tools and a broader audience.

[AWM Mars]

To answer Jeroen:
"Interesting! So you're opting for a program that works closely together with DeleD? What features would it have? Can you elaborate on things like scene management?"
One of the poorest implemented programmes I have seen todate is Scene Managers, yet they are THE most important programmes of now, and in the future. There is a proliferation of modellers and models out on the internet. Many are not really created for Immersive Environments (Multi User), due to their high poly counts. But there is a growing popularity in the ilks/standards of MilkShape etc.

For me as an Artist, DeleD fits the workflow for me to produce some pretty eye catching models, even full blown scenes, despite the criticisms I have heard being bounded about on the forums. Sure there are a few bugs, but for me its about Workflow and results.

Where I get frustrated is, having poured a lot of time and effort in producing a very eye catching scene in DeleD, it is now in the hands of the Scene Manager programmes, which for the most part are either- Bugged to death and poorly implemented.. Unfinished and never will be.. Unable to actually publish a Environment ready for Multi User use (what I call Middleware).. Are heavily directional towards Programmers.. Charge a fortune as an initial payment (license), charge a downpayment AND 25% of your turnover.
Blink 3D, Unity3D, irrEdit, Ogitor, Panda3D, Awakening, Carrara, 3DWebmaker, 3D Rad, VastPark etc etc.. I have struggled with them all and they all have a mixture of the above list.

Now... as I find DeleD to fit perfectly with my workflow, and the multitude of users of DeleD must surely find the same.. IF you then developed the next logical step to DeleD and make a Scene Manager from scratch, in whatever language you prefer.. but please keep it in the same symmetry/userability/layout format etc as DeleD (the very heart and soul that makes DeleD different from the proliferation of 'Low Polygon' modelling programmes available). Anyone using DeleD can then save their work, then open the Scene Manager, import models (including native ones from DeleD of course), and lay them out into the World Scene, ready for 'Publishing' so they can be used/viewed.

The Scene Manager would include the ability to alter/add properties to the meshes/models, add a working/animated environment such as water, clouds (look at Hydrax and SkyX), add scripted functions to cameras, NPC's, mesh properties, shaders, particles, avatars, media rendering, mapped input controllers, physics and much more via plug-in's (see Vast Parks implementation).

The next part is not to fall into using Flash or Java to host the published environment, as these have security issues and a future short lifespan. It will need either a cross platform language, or a Client for different OS's. Consider using a Browser plug-in system. It's easier to update globally/centrally and automatically. I would estimate, by the time you guys get the framework together, the MPEG format will be mature enough to implement. MPEG can render the environments, the data delivery will be streamed, which has huge network strategies advantage over 'download then use' current alternatives, the MPEG-v and u standards will have 2 way data streaming for network layers and collaboration, as well as communications (text chat and VOIP), in addition it will handle all forms of media, music, sounds, video, webcams, even document sharing... all through secure layers.

My Message.. don't rewrite DeleD, take the next logical step.
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[trucker2000]

I've been following this discussion from the sidelines to see where it would go. It's been an interesting read.
As for rewriting DeleD in another language:
If you have the fortitude to do that, go for it. I just don't think there are very many programmers that would consider doing that much work as a hobby tho, so most likely, you'll be a 1-2 man team. I'm not trying to discourage, or even say it's a bad idea. Just trying to be realistic. After 10 years of study, I'm still not a programmer, so won't be able to help.
What I think should be done, for those who know how and want to push DeleD forward, is what was talked about in the very beginning. Modulise deled. Someone started it, but ended up on some type of psycotropic drugs and bald. (kidding about the drugs and baldness) If DeleDs code could be cleaned up a bit and aranged better, it would make adding new things easier.

AMW, a scene manager is part of a game engine. (which is where it should be) I can fully understand what you are looking for tho. The problem with writing a scene manager that works directly from within deled is it would also have to be added to your game engine, otherwise, nothing would work. It's a shame Adobe didn't see the potential in atmosphere. 10 years after it's shelving and it is still ahead of everyone, and has the features most artists demand.
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[Starnick]

[adr]

You make a good point Starnick. We can't totally tie our selfs to a game engine that would make us limited, but you could build around open sourse engines that uses thos things making the plugins more usefull and to get more programmers to work with deled. Like stated before by a few people.

Only thing is that we would have to maybe still rewrite deled for more plugin control than actully the deled core control, so in this time, you could rewrite deled in another langeage if you wanted to do so. This would mean that even setup scene management would have to be controlable by a plugin, but with users able to tie down deled to their project, users can get more output/flow work done a lot faster than having a general implementation one that really don't work.

For example, deled doesn't support sharders, but I could import the plugin code needed from panda 3d to give deled sharder support whitch is writen in c++. (Just an idea, don't really know if you can or not=)).

You could also remarket deled to thos open source engines to say, "Hey work with us on making deled better and in return you can use our prodect as your world manager and editor."

[AWM Mars]

I can see where a lot of you are still on the rails of a DeleD rewrite. It's not broken enough to warrant that, and after 5+ years of a love/hate relationship, you would only have moved a few feet forward in its evolution. Many will argue that its evolution would then go forward in strides.. but.. investing into an unknown without financial reward, just to hone a perfectly good tool.. where as....

Put your efforts into 'buying' upward into the chain. It is fair to say, after creating a worthy model, almost 99.9% of everyone will then open another programme to do the next stage with that model.
Myself, I look for a scene manager to layout the objects/models (which maybe a whole scene in a single import), apply environmental attributes (terrain, water, sky etc), apply scripts to any objects for functionality, physics, networking layers for multi users (comms as well) and of course a rendering/hosting package.
Using the ilks of Vast Park, or Blink3D is all much of a muchness. However, if you were looking to apply any rendering package to the scene manager, you could perhaps not do better in the long run, than use the mature Ogre graphics libraries. They also combine nicely with Hydrax and SkyX plug-ins. All being open-source as well

I have seen a few Scene Managers like Ogitor and Blink3D using the Ogre engine, but these are middleware or incomplete, with Blink3D its very very buggy and no longer available. Therefore there is plenty of scope to make a fully fledged Ogre based Scene Manager. Add a physics plug-in system for the ilks of PhysX etc etc.. and you have a complete stage of evolution for 3D graphics and environments.
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[AWM Mars]

[chronozphere]

I'm having an interesting idea.

It's clear that there is no good scene manager for use with DeleD. Most of them are unstable or unsupported. So writing a separate scene manager would fill that gap.

However, if we make it a very plug-in based program, we could eventually add modelling tools into it. It will start with a feature-set like this:

Importing models (<Insert populair formats here>)
Manipulating them (move / rotate / scale)
Managing them as a tree
Attaching tags (name value pairs)
A cool preview window to walk through your scene
Support for Scene importers/exporters to be used with populair engines

IF such a program catches on and is used alot, we could add plugins that allow us to modify the polygons/vertices of a model. The original DeleD will still be used, until this program is advanced enough to be used on his own.

Just a wild idea. Thought I should mention it.

[AWM Mars]

Its not a wild idea, just doesn't go far enough. Scene Managers are plentiful, they just do not finish the job to the point where you have a usable product. Thats why I refer to them as Middleware..
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[Jeroen]

I like the idea Chronozphere mentioned too. I can imagine this being some sort of advanced general-purpose level editor (if there is such a thing ). But we need to know more about the actual purpose, a clear feature list and potential userbase.

AWM: what additional features would such a program need? Can you put such requirements in a list? Having a list makes discussing features much easier. Also, can you tell a little more about Atmosphere? What made it so useful?
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[trucker2000]

I see what you guys are talking about with the scene manager now. Thanks.
Some of those things can already be done by using the tag line in every model. Just make sure your engine can read and understand it.
I know that's super basic to what you are talking about tho, so it may not be enough.

Jeroen, Adobe Atmosphere was a bsp based modeling/game engine. You made bsp objects inside atmo, and imported viewpoint objects for everhthing else. It used java script for it's scripting language that could then be easily added inside the builder. When you were finished making your game, just click the export button (or was it publish?) and it wrapped everything neatly inside a folder that you placed on your website. It used the viewpoint pluggin to view/play.

Edit to add:
Atmoshere Builder 1
Builder 2
Builder 3
Builder 4
Builder 5
Builder 6

Unfortunately, I can't find any of my original worlds built with the builder, so I can't show you how things really look. This gives an idea tho.
_________________
Some day I will grow up and be a real modeler.
"Never give up! Never surrender!!"
Sys specs:
asus
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Invidia gtx560 video card
Windows 8 (worst op sys Ever)

[Spaddlewit]

Thanks to the "comments" and "tag" fields, I am already using DeleD as a scene manager!

[chronozphere]