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gcatso
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 9
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 Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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That's no problem Vampyre_Dark. I understand you didn't sign up to make it and I appreciate your time spent trying to help us.
I'm not sure what a "loader" is or how it can be used for evil but hopefully someone else he sent the info to can help us out. |
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hpesoj
DeleD PRO user
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Uh... how exactly can a file format loader be "used for evil"??? I can't possibly think of any way that someone could use some code to load a file in order to spread destruction and chaos throughout the DeleD, or indeed any other community. Can you ask this guy what he's afraid we're going to do with his code? |
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Chester
Member
Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 1
Location: Petawawa Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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It not you guys, Its other people, And with the info provided cheats can be made this is why over half the info most of us half tracked down and or decrypted our selfs was never released. Same as with some certain other tools we have. Some people just don't know how to use it for the good of gaming and always need to destroy what we try to build up. I shared the info with you guys and thats about as much as i can do. Theres cheats already made with just the use of the 3di viewer tool. I can only imagine some of the cheats that can be made with the info on 3di files, I can name about 10 right now.
This is why i asked for the info not to be released.
For us gamers who play the game alot and have done alot of work on it , we pretty much know the ins and outs of it and what files can cause havoc.
Anyhow not much i can do here now, I did this as a favor. |
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Daaark
DeleD PRO user
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 2696
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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A loader -- is code to load something into memory... like a 3di file into his editor, or whatever program that is for. It can be used to figure out how to parse the file format for your own purposes.
I forwarded the code to JR and PJ, they can do as they wish with it. It's chester's code, so I abide by his wishes, and I will not post it here. |
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hpesoj
DeleD PRO user
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Ah right, I guess like editing the maps to their advantage, gotcha. |
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Qt
Member
Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:44 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone interested in helping an old gaming community? |
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| gcatso wrote: |
| The df2 modding community needs to be able to edit .3di files to change models of items in the game and still after many years there isn't one. It would be greatly appreciated if someone could check out the .3di file format and see if they can make a plugin to be able to view and edit them. So if anyone is interested please say so and I will upload some sample files. Thanks |
Novalogic (creator of DF2) probably never will release any info about the 3di format (even for an old game like DF2), since the 6 year old game is still very much popular, and since such a release could open up a can of worms related to cheaters and trainer makers. I know, there are already a lot of trainers available for the people on the "dark side", but making it even more easy for almost everybody to cheat, wouldn't exactly help on the situation.
Personally, I agree with that policy. Those who have the ability to figure it all out will do so anyway, but I simply won't help them. The release of the 3di format would have been great for the modding community, but it would also have been devastating for the ordinary DF2 communities who are just playing the game. Nothing is as irritating for the enjoyment of a game as when some dork is joining the server with a cheat which could sysdump other players, kill the other players with a press on a key, etc... Those people already exist, and we have to live with it. I just won't add to the fire by sharing info on something which would make the situation much more worse.
Even without the release of the 3di format, it's very easy to cheat in DF2 (I won't tell how), and I won't contribute to making this situation even worse by releasing any information about the DF2 3di file format. What you've got from Chester is old, inaccurate & misleading, and as I look through it now, I know it will be pretty confusing as well.
I'm the creator of X3di (a tool for editing/viewing the DF2 3di files, still in the works), and gcatso would already know from MMH that I won't release the 3di editor version of it, but possibly the 3di viewer. I might consider sharing a DF2 3di 3d model importer for Delgine, or maybe a similar one for GLScene (Delphi), since that would not reveal other, non-3d model, parts of the DF2 3di format.
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DF2 Forever! |
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Paul-Jan
Site Admin
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 3066
Location: Lage Zwaluwe
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:36 am Post subject: |
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We will take a good hard look at supporting import/export of the 3DI format when we've pushed DeleD 1.3 out the door. Wether or not the specs we received up to now are accurate, the files don't look overly complicated when inspected in a hex editor. We'll try to keep everyone happy and only allow the necessary 3D modeling parts of the files to be modified. If someone (QT?) feels like beating us to it and write some plugins before that... that'd be most welcome of course! 
Also, I think that a network gaming model that relies on file format secrecy to prevent cheating smells a lot like sloppy network programming  But maybe that's just my lack of expertise... |
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hpesoj
DeleD PRO user
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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There are many ways to prevent cheaters in a game, but this game sounds like it is old and not being supported any more, so I guess commenting on how there are other ways to stop cheaters is kind of pointless.
Qt - It sounds like even if DeleD were able to export and import 3Di files, there are many aspects of them that would have to be added with some other tool, and by the sounds of it there is no such tool available publicly for the reasons you have stated. Is there really any point importing files into DeleD anyway? |
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gcatso
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Not so much import as export. We don't really have to be able to edit existing models. The main thing would be creating new models. |
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Paul-Jan
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Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 3066
Location: Lage Zwaluwe
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ...there are many aspects of them that would have to be added with some other tool |
Not really, you could make the plugin a bit more fancy and use it to edit whatever properties you'd like to edit. State could be stored in intermediate files or directly into the 3DI output files. Wether or not that is appropriate depends on how heavy-weight the functionality is we are talking about here 
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| so I guess commenting on how there are other ways to stop cheaters is kind of pointless |
I was hoping to change to minds of some people who accept it as 'obvious' that keeping file formats closed is a prefered way to create a "secure" (cheat-proof) networking system. At no point was I trying to get Novalogic to recode their networking layer  |
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Qt
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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3dView by FwO Raven can be used to export the textures and the 3D models in .obj format, and then one could use pretty much any 3D editor to import those. There also already exists a 3di importer for MilkShape3D (and possibly also for Ultimate Unwrap3D). They import only the 3D model related values. They're not working 100% perfectly for all of the 3di files, though. There are no 3di exporters available.
To produce new 3di files for DF2, I guess one could try making a similar MOD tool as Novalogic released for their BHD (Black Hawk Down) game. That tool requires that you've already got a 3D model available in ASE format, you import it and then set all the game related parameters inside the tool, before saving it all to a 3di file.
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DF2 Forever!
Last edited by Qt on Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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gcatso
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| There are no 3di exporters available. |
Which is why I am here requesting for one to be made. Jeroen has expressed an interest and said they may start work on it after they get 1.3 released (around aug-sep) if they have enough information on the format. |
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Jeroen
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 5332
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Qt wrote: |
To produce new 3di files for DF2, I guess one could try making a similar MOD tool as Novalogic released for their BHD (Black Hawk Down) game. That tool requires that you've already got a 3D model available in ASE format, you import it and then set all the game related parameters inside the tool, before saving it all to a 3di file. |
That would have to be done with a plugin especially made for DF2 modding indeed as DeleD itself won't support the editing of game-specific parameters. Besides that, DeleD is most suitable for level-editing, not so much for character modelling. Is the latter primarily requested here? |
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Qt
Member
Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeroen wrote: |
| That would have to be done with a plugin especially made for DF2 modding indeed as DeleD itself won't support the editing of game-specific parameters. Besides that, DeleD is most suitable for level-editing, not so much for character modelling. Is the latter primarily requested here? |
I'm not the requester, but I believe we're talking about making new objects like vehicles, buildings, walls, trees, bridges, soldiers, airplanes, etc. here.
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DF2 Forever! |
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granada
Team member
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 1955
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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I believe we're talking about making new objects like vehicles, buildings, walls, trees, bridges, soldiers, airplanes, etc. here.
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Thats all possible in DeLeD, with a little work
Dave
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