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Daaark
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 2696
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 8:48 am    Post subject: Misc Features Reply with quote

1) I loaded up a scene tonight, and about half the objects weren't saved in it.

2) When copying an object, it gets the name of the object type it was originally, instead of the name of the object it was copied from. ie... copying a 'crate' will get you a copy named 'cube'

3) Weird things happen when trying to create a primitive when the grid settings are set at or below the creation size settings. You end up with a stick, or a flat profile.
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Jeroen
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Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 5332
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) That's no good, can you send me that file?

2) That's programmed behaviour, not a bug. DeleD previously used the name + new ID value but this resulted in names like crate1121231234 etc. No good. So now we use the type+new ID value.

3) DeleD automatically snaps new objects to the current gridsize. If the size of the new object is below the current gridsize, you might get strange results. If you have suggestions on how to improve this technique, please elaborate! Smile

Edit: hmm... maybe the naming function should use name+ID afterall. Just thought about another way to accomplish that.


Last edited by Jeroen on Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Paul-Jan
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Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 3066
Location: Lage Zwaluwe

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe we shouldn't allow objects to become smaller than the current gridsize + not allow the creation properties to be < gridsize. Would that work?
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Daaark
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 2696
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeroen wrote:
1) That's no good, can you send me that file?


I will post the file when it's done lighting. I had to rebuild some missing objects.


Quote:
2) That's programmed behaviour, not a bug. DeleD previously used the name + new ID value but this resulted in names like crate1121231234 etc. No good. So now we use the type+new ID value.


Vase2393 is allot better than cube9345. At least I know what it is. ATM, it makes naming anything useless.

Quote:
3) DeleD automatically snaps new objects to the current gridsize. If the size of the new object is below the current gridsize, you might get strange results. If you have suggestions on how to improve this technique, please elaborate! Smile


The grid snaps in all modes cause me huge problems. Remember that picture I posted last night? I made a shelf like that, and I went to move it today, and the whole thing, with every object on it turned into a straight line. :S I selected a chunk of my wall, (not moving it) and it automatically turned into a triangle shape from some random vertices snapping.

My bug list would be a bit longer, but I wanted to 'elaborate' on the problems first. I'm taking some screenshots to try and explain the lightmapping problems.
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Jeroen
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Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 5332
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note that you can change the snapping of individual objects using the Object Inspector. You might want to set the snapping to None after your object is totally finished.

Please do send the file, we need testdata to work with. Smile
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Daaark
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 2696
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to go for abit now. I will be back in a few hours, and I'll send you the files, and explain some things more. I took some pics of the light mapping to show bugs, or things that look abit wrong, I'll explain them later when I come back.

For now, the pics are in this folder... The lightest_proof image is taken from something else, with a similar lighting setup to my scene.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v227/Vampyre_Dark/misc/
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Daaark
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 2696
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you want the texture pack?

(Ack, the file is too large to post.)

I mailed a zip with the map and textures.
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Daaark
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 2696
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vampyre_Dark wrote:
Do you want the texture pack?

(Ack, the file is too large to post.)

I mailed a zip with the map and textures.


Did you guys ever get the file? I got no replies.

Okay, onto the lightmapping... I hope I can explain this good enough...

Why are you using the ambient color as the shadow color? We need the ambient colour to render the map, and to light all the rendered objects. Otherwise we are going to have to set black as our ambient color, and all our objects will suffer this effect

http://www.tweak3d.net/tweak/nolf/lightmap3.jpg

(That's the best example image I could find, even though the map does have an ambient colour, which is yellowish... just look at the two characters, it shows what I'm trying to explain...) The ambient light in the map is set to black, and the characters who are standing right in the sunlight are pitch black! The ambient colour shouldn't be used at all in the lightmapping. The shadows should be black.

Ok, now for another example. Here is a scene made in something else (nwn) with the same lighting setup as a scene I lit in Deled. I use the exact same shades. The ambient color is a blue (0,64,128) I think, and there is an orange light acting as the sun pouring over the scene.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/Vampyre_Dark/misc/lighttest_proof.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/Vampyre_Dark/misc/deled_lighttest.jpg

The deled render is way off. The shadows are the ambient color, and the orange light turns purple and pink on the objects it hits intead of staying orange.

edit -- omg, I forgot about these... they should help me abit

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/Vampyre_Dark/Mapping%20Portfolio/Shot0003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/Vampyre_Dark/Mapping%20Portfolio/Shot0013.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/Vampyre_Dark/Mapping%20Portfolio/Shot0009.jpg

All of these levels I made had very high ambient colors, so the game characters could still be seen, but the shadows are still drawn black! In the house the ambient was light grey, it was white in the coffee shop, and purple in the outdoor shot.... and yes, I know my shadows are hard to see because I was going for the blurry soft shadow look. Shocked
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Paul-Jan
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Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 3066
Location: Lage Zwaluwe

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't get your files, but maybe Jeroen has. Yesterday has been quite hectic with bugfixes and all, so that could explain why you haven't seen any reactions.

About your comments, I don't really get what you mean, so I am going to guess. If I'm guessing wrong, please correct me!

I think what you are saying is that your are disagreeing with our definition of the ambient light colour of the scene (being: the basis amount of light hitting objects that are not directly exposed to any light sources, in simple-speak: shadows), and that shadows should be black, always.

The reason we introduced this property is because, in most applications, you don't want your shadows to be black, you want them to have just a wee bit of colour. In real life, reflecting light off other surfaces will make sure no surface is ever pitch black (except for maybe the iside of a very very dark cave). However, as the DeleD lightmapping is not a global illumination solution, this effect won't occur (no reflections), so we allow the user to set a basic colour that is the 'absolute minimum lighting level'. Or, the colour of the shadows, if you want to look at it that way.

I think that you are having problems because you expect the ambient colour to be something else. The thing is: we introduced the ambient colour especially for the purpose of it being our "shadow colour" as you refer to it. I don't really understand what other purpose you are using it for (to 'render our objects'??? Have all your entities the same colour multiplier? Why?) but you should probably request for a special property for that purpose. Unless I am awefully mistaken (I could very well be) our definition of 'ambient colour' is the very very common one, same as for example used in default OpenGL/DirectX lighting.

p.s. the tweak3d screenshot is not working.
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Daaark
DeleD PRO user


Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 2696
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul-Jan wrote:
I didn't get your files, but maybe Jeroen has. Yesterday has been quite hectic with bugfixes and all, so that could explain why you haven't seen any reactions.

About your comments, I don't really get what you mean, so I am going to guess. If I'm guessing wrong, please correct me!


Right and wrong at the same time. I'll try to explain better, and find some images. I sent the zip to the email you list in your profile for your msn.
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Daaark
DeleD PRO user


Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 2696
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand what the ambient light is for, and how it is used. Since you know OpenGL I will talk in those terms. To put it simply, it is used to to cheaply simulate the bouncing of light off one surface from another.

Ok, so knowing that. Say we have an outdoor map, and it's set at sunset. So we need to simulate that light coming down from the sun and casting orange, and it bouncing all over the place. So we set the ambient light in our map to that orange colour.

Now when rendering it in game, we set OpenGL's global ambient light to that same colour. Then render the map. The map is drawn normally, but with this orange hue too to make it look like sunset. Also, the lightmaps are modulated over this and blend on top. So even though the shadows are black, they lighten up abit to the orange ambient color when they are blended in automatically. OpenGL / Realtime lighting is off here, except for the golbal ambient color.

Then you render all your objects/creatures, and they all get the same ambient colour lighting on them (ornage). Also, if they are near one of the lights placed in the map, they are light by that too.

That is how the ambient colour is meant to be used. What you are doing, is flooding all the lightmaps with it, when the ambient color has no reason to be in them at all. Also, the ambient color can be changed at runtime, like to simulate time passing, and let the scene get darker or brighter.

Ok, here is a quickie image I drew to show what I mean, and a pic from world of warcraft to show it in use. The first one is a quickie I made in paintshop to simulate the proper effect of the map rendered with the ambient light color stored in the map turned on in opengl, and then the lightmaps modulated in.

The second pic is from IGN, it's a pic of World Of Warcraft, drawing things like I described above.
...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/Vampyre_Dark/misc/lm_example.jpg
http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/535/535419/world-of-warcraft-20040803102040322.jpg
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Paul-Jan
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Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 3066
Location: Lage Zwaluwe

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now when rendering it in game, we set OpenGL's global ambient light to that same colour. Then render the map. The map is drawn normally, but with this orange hue too to make it look like sunset. Also, the lightmaps are modulated over this and blend on top. So even though the shadows are black, they lighten up abit to the orange ambient color when they are blended in automatically. OpenGL / Realtime lighting is off here, except for the golbal ambient color.


That fully cleared it up for me, thanks!!! I thought the most common way of doing this was:
1. Turn off lighting
2. Draw map, including lightmaps
3. Turn on lighting (including ambient light)
4. Draw entities.

I'll do a little more researching and then I'll probably fix the lightmapping (+ DeleD internal render-loop Razz) to make it work the way you describe (which is an easy cut-line-of-code-out fix as you may understand). I can see the advantages of doing things your way, as you can change the ambient colour at realtime and still use the pre-rendered lightmap (like you said). Even the DeleD GUI (which has the ambient colour seperated from the lightmapping) would make more sense that way.

Thank you very much for 'showing me the light'!


Last edited by Paul-Jan on Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Paul-Jan
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Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 3066
Location: Lage Zwaluwe

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and that also clears up why I hadn't seen your mail, please don't mail me at my hotmail account as it is for messenging (i.e. i HATE it, so I never ever check it Wink ) only, us my delgine address in stead:

paul justalittleplaceholdertoavoidtoomuchspam at andanotherone delgine dot com

Thanks again Exclamation
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Daaark
DeleD PRO user


Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 2696
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok sent. Smile


Oh yeah. I also noticed some weird artifacts in the shadowing that you can see in my screenshots

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/Vampyre_Dark/misc/deled_lighting_wrong.jpg

That one shows it best. Look along the bottom of the back wall. Above the baseboards. There is no light low to the ground that show be casting that shadow upwards. And in the box under the window (The box that makes up the wall part) there is no shadow.

I tried to play around with the light, and do different things to try and see why that was happening, but I couldn't find out.
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Edwin
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Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 8
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that is happening because the lightmapper saves multiple lightmaps in one texture, so other lightmaps are overlapping the edges.
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